I've had my first chargeback - advice on fighting it?

[melsig]

So, even though my son had (and has) no interest in Star Wars, I couldn't resist buying a Super Star Destroyer during the Target glitch. I decided this fall that it was finally time to let it go (and buy a few sets he actually wants instead, like the Tumbler), so I sold it on eBay last week. Although the buyer had less than 10 feedback total (which made me nervous - I took copious photos of the set while packing it up and sent a couple photos to the buyer through eBay messaging prior to shipment), everything seemed to go smoothly and he posted positive feedback. Once I left my own feedback, he initiated the chargeback for an unauthorized purchase.

I sent the set fully-insured and signature restricted through the US Postal Service. It was signed for by the recipient, according to postal records. The recipient and the owner of the credit card have different first names, but the same surname. I did ship to the verified shipping address on the order page.

Needless to say, I submitted this information to Paypal. I'm wondering, though, whether I should be filing any additional information to support my case. I'm also wondering whether I'm likely to get the chargeback reversed or not. Anyone have any advice? Thanks!

[vhn2dmd]

Wow that really sucks. I hate how dishonest people are. I have no advice because I haven't sold anything yet but I do have some pricier sets that I have been thinking about selling. I am very interested in what happens so please update as this plays out. Also, as a seller, can you refuse to sell someone? without getting any negative feedback

[lordoflego]

Same thing on the same set happened to me maybe month ago, unauthorized purchase, feedback was 0 or something like that, I used ups to ship it for like $130 and tracking said delivered, call PayPal and ask to have it resolved right away while you are on the phone, be nice though, they took care of it right away and now it's their problem to investigate and decide if this is a cheat or not.

[lordoflego]

Wow that really sucks. I hate how dishonest people are. I have no advice because I haven't sold anything yet but I do have some pricier sets that I have been thinking about selling. I am very interested in what happens so please update as this plays out. Also, as a seller, can you refuse to sell someone? without getting any negative feedback

U can block certain buyers, but you would have to do it prior to them doing the bidding I guess and you can put some restrictions on your listings like no 0 feedback buyers allowed, no bidders that had non-paying-bidder cases open lately......

[melsig]

Same thing on the same set happened to me maybe month ago, unauthorized purchase, feedback was 0 or something like that, I used ups to ship it for like $130 and tracking said delivered, call PayPal and ask to have it resolved right away while you are on the phone, be nice though, they took care of it right away and now it's their problem to investigate and decide if this is a cheat or not.

Thanks very much for your input - I tried calling last night, but couldn't wait in the phone queue long enough to get to a live person. I'll try again.

I tried sending the seller a reasonable email to contact me about the issue - and lo and behold the Paypal email address doesn't exist. Did the same with the eBay email address and same result. Hopefully, this plus signature restricted delivery to the confirmed address will take care of it.

[lordoflego]

You did your part, even if it was unauthorized -that's ebays/paypals problem, that's why tracking is important. But now cheaters try with the unauthorized purchase since they can't say it wasn't delivered. With big sets I always worry, so make sure you ship it properly and safely. I only ship internationally via eBay global shipping program because I'm worried about not being able to prove it arrived where it suppose to arrive.

[melsig]

You did your part, even if it was unauthorized -that's ebays/paypals problem, that's why tracking is important. But now cheaters try with the unauthorized purchase since they can't say it wasn't delivered. With big sets I always worry, so make sure you ship it properly and safely. I only ship internationally via eBay global shipping program because I'm worried about not being able to prove it arrived where it suppose to arrive.

I refuse to deal with international shipments right now for that reason.

I was so paranoid, I took copious photos demonstrating how well I packed this set! This is the only set I've ever sold for over $500, and I don't think I'm interested in making it a habit. Honestly, at this point I'm mostly just destashing. Most of the extras I collected over the past several years are already out the door. Now it's just deciding what to keep for the family and for my son's future AFOL self. I hated to let the Super Star Destroyer go for that reason, but the kid just can't stand Star Wars - it's really bizarre.

[melsig]

Wow that really sucks. I hate how dishonest people are. I have no advice because I haven't sold anything yet but I do have some pricier sets that I have been thinking about selling. I am very interested in what happens so please update as this plays out. Also, as a seller, can you refuse to sell someone? without getting any negative feedback

U can block certain buyers, but you would have to do it prior to them doing the bidding I guess and you can put some restrictions on your listings like no 0 feedback buyers allowed, no bidders that had non-paying-bidder cases open lately......

Yes, I agree with above.

I will post the outcome, once I've had a chance to call. Ultimately, I've used eBay for over 10 years and have had only a handful of problems. I wouldn't let this dissuade you from trying it out.

[stevebuscemi]

The issue here is not blocking people They will just create new accounts. The seller can still get his money back from Paypal though or directly.

Paypal *SHOULD* protect you with their seller protection policy if you sent it with signature + to his confirmed address. Call up Paypal. Make sure you call them. That's the only way to handle it with them, as you can explain it to that person.

The chargeback credit card company will most likely side with the buyer, sadly. Given that this is over $1000, the credit card company should be suspicious of this guy, as he's prob. done this a few times. But you are dealing with the customer and Paypal.

Paypal
1) Call them
2) Make sure you upload documents showing signature confirmation, make sure you upload a screenshot of the USPS tracking page as well.
3) Upload to Paypal ALL KINDS OF STUFF, make it redundant! Who cares if you send them 10+ uploads. Keep them with all the info. Who signed for it, the USPS tracking page screenshot, any info from USPS.

Customer:
1) Did you send it to a physical address? Then you have their address. You can get their phone number, and if not, mail them a letter and say you'll take them to small claims court.
2) Do an eBay information look-up and get his phone number, it may or may not be legit.
3) Call them up! Don't be afraid, call them and talk to them and see what is going on. Pester them if you have to.
4) Mail them a letter if need be. Mention going to court and that you won't let this matter go.

Finally, if all these fail, you may need to contact a lawyer or file a small claims court case in YOUR county. Then you would have to hit that customer with additional legal fees, added on to the SSD sales price.

[stevebuscemi]

melsig, if you want more info, feel free to PM me. I've been a seller on eBay for 10+ years. I hate when this happens, and about once every 2-3 years it happens to me too.

With something $1000+ I wouldn't let it go though. If you shipped it to a physical address you are good. And if it was to a PO Box the USPS can get involved and USPS has to have 2 forms of ID provided to get a PO box, so you can get their address that way.

[melsig]

Paypal *SHOULD* protect you with their seller protection policy if you sent it with signature + to his confirmed address. Call up Paypal. Make sure you call them. That's the only way to handle it with them, as you can explain it to that person.

The chargeback credit card company will most likely side with the buyer, sadly. Given that this is over $1000, the credit card company should be suspicious of this guy, as he's prob. done this a few times. But you are dealing with the customer and Paypal.

Thank you so much for all of your good advice (and the offer of more assistance!). As it happens, I sent a message late last night asking for clarification on whether I needed to file a separate claim for Paypal Seller Protection or not. I received a response back late today (before I placed a call) that Paypal reviewed my documents (and I did do an info dump on them) and determined that I am covered under Paypal Seller Protection. The hold on the funds has been released, although the dispute is listed as ongoing. Paypal has requested that I stand by, in case they need additional information to present to the credit card company.

As it also happens, I was a lawyer in my other life (before my son came along). I took a preliminary look last night at personal jurisdiction for on-line transactions to determine whether it would be possible to me to file in my local court. While my research was by no means thorough (it was 2am by that point, but I was steamed enough to take a quick look), it seems filing would have had to take place on the buyer's end. At that point, I needed to weigh the merits of hiring local counsel (I am in Illinois, buyer is in California), not to mention that even if you obtain, say, a default judgment, enforcing it can be a real pain in the neck. While I have to agree that this option has the most teeth, I'm just as happy not to have to go through it. (Although, admittedly, I can write a nasty breach of contract letter with the best of them - and I was certainly half drafting it in my sleep last night.)

I'll tell you one thing this has taught me - never ignore Seller Protection requirements!

[StClair]

Glad that paypal is looking into things for you.
On a semi-related note I just today received a message from a customer stating that they received an empty envelope with nothing inside... I always triple check the tape and packaging as I walk into the post office and standing in line. I also "feel" gently (out of boredom in line) to determine which item is in which envelope so I would definitely know if I shipped an empty envelope. I also distinctly remember packaging that particular item and the other item that shipped same day to another customer. I almost always wrap minifigures in a 1.5 inch strip of bubble wrap before placing the purchase in a bubble wrap lined envelope to prevent scuffs and scratches to the minifigure and I remember wrapping each item for the purchase. I've replied with a message asking if they padded envelope was opened or sealed when it arrived. No word back yet. I'll probably have to refund the money to keep my 100% positive feedback rating. I'm just glad it was only $11. It won't be the first time that I've had to absorb the loss when the post office either lost the item or customer lied.